2551 replies to this topic

[IanD]

olazaboll - amazing lol....!

 

I just went to the website of Thana City Golf and aside from how impressed I was with the similarity of the complex and frontage, I took a look at Hole No.1... I was starting to think I must have have been there in another life, even though my father lives only an hour outside Bangkok...lol! My 1st hole is exactly the same shape, Par 5... however, that's where it ends. It would be too spooky to see anything further match... but I take your point. I'll definitely consider your suggestion too, for inspiration.

 

There are many forms of inspiration out there though... here's another within 30 miles of where I'm currently living..

 

[IanD]

Slowly things keep moving forward... the 14th Par 3..

 

This is the view from the middle Tee, just off to the left of it anyway. I was told to not stand on the grass... it's my course..!

 

 

If we go a little further back, we can see the whole potential of hopefully what this hole offers.

 

 

 

The actual green is approx 75yds in length, front to back.. but the aim here is to ensure the pins are placed accordingly, on each tier. It's also designed to be a faster green than most of the other holes, allowing room for those overhit Tee shots. From the back tees, it's approx 225yds to the front tier.. so we have room to make things a little tricky on the back tier. It does bring in to play the old debate of chipping on the green... does PG even allow that lol... ?

[IanD]

Thought I'd share another little addition I noticed on the drive out this morning.. the stone-masons had been busy too..!

 

 

Still alot more to do, including the road to be properly tarmac'd and planting too. Bit by bit...day by day...

[FixAmer1st]

Ian, Is that car to scale?? If so then that is one BIG wall and sign.

Usually you have one of the groundskeepers standing there for scale.

Looks great though.

Jerry

[IanD]

Jerry, it is a monster indeed...  however, the car is as I can tell, to scale. I have no doubt the true 'scale' will reveal itself when we have a working game and things that may even measure correct may not 'look' right. However, things are easily adjusted and the signage can be easily reduced. It isn't as hard as I thought to get 3D text into Unity.. Maybe this image helps..

 

[FixAmer1st]

Much better Ian.

In the original picture the car looks like it is only half as high as the fence alongside it.

Here up close I can see it is much better to scale and the BIG sign is only about 12 feet high if the person is 6 ft tall.

Jerry

[Barry]

Nice work Ian

[Ted_Ball]

Hi KII,

 

Having seen the beauty of your course in your screenshots and the sense of realism that you are achieving, I'd like to ask you something about the quality of the graphics on the greens.

 

I started working in Unity with the aim of building a putting green to see for myself whether I could 'read' the green so that putting could be achieved with some degree of accuracy without a grid. During my tutorial kindergarten period I came across the PP forum and your project and immediately abandoned my own Unity experiment with a great deal of relief. I had seen that first PP vid a while ago and decided it might be 'just another golf game' even though it looked good. I thought nothing more about it. Now that I've checked out all the programs coming out from PP I'm very excited not only from a playing perspective but also for course design.

 

The putting grid has been a bit of a pet hate of mine (along with quite a few others) in all the golf games I've tried. I won't call them sims. I ran some club tournaments in TWO and didn't allow grids. Putting without grids was semi-successful. I think they implemented a ground level camera which helped and you could view the putt from the opposite side of the hole which helped as well, but I felt it could be done better to give a more instinctive read. WGT was no improvement and I believe you couldn't turn off the grid anyway. I might be wrong. I even downloaded Links2003 to jog my memory yesterday to see how they grid the green. They, of course, had the 'break line' method which was ok but the putting mechanics had no 'feel' in my opinion.

 

So my question is this. When you are on the green and you move the camera up and down (which no doubt can be done) are you able to read the break with some degree of accuracy? I understand it's hard to get a feel for the slope, uphill or downhill to the hole, on a computer game but if you can walk around the putt I would imagine it would give you some information regarding how much fall or rise there is. The direction of the light source would be important as well. 

 

Thanks in anticipation. Love your work. Willows are fine. Probably longer foliage with less trunk showing. I'm a bit of a graphic designer and might be able to help.

[IanD]

A quieter week personally, not able to delve into every aspect of all details and dotted lines.. at some point I feel you have to go with a natural flow. Hopefully that's what you set out to do... achieving it provides a mixture of results and no doubt, opinions..

 

'This week, I've been mostly on the 17th Tee..'

 

 

Above : Looking behind the Tee Area

Below : Looking ahead at the 17th Fairway

 

 

Still a long way to go, don't believe I only have one to go just because it's the 17th.. that's the fun of course design, sometimes completing one hole leads you halfway through another..

[IanD]

 

Hi KII,

 

Having seen the beauty of your course in your screenshots and the sense of realism that you are achieving, I'd like to ask you something about the quality of the graphics on the greens.

 

I started working in Unity with the aim of building a putting green to see for myself whether I could 'read' the green so that putting could be achieved with some degree of accuracy without a grid. During my tutorial kindergarten period I came across the PP forum and your project and immediately abandoned my own Unity experiment with a great deal of relief. I had seen that first PP vid a while ago and decided it might be 'just another golf game' even though it looked good. I thought nothing more about it. Now that I've checked out all the programs coming out from PP I'm very excited not only from a playing perspective but also for course design.

 

The putting grid has been a bit of a pet hate of mine (along with quite a few others) in all the golf games I've tried. I won't call them sims. I ran some club tournaments in TWO and didn't allow grids. Putting without grids was semi-successful. I think they implemented a ground level camera which helped and you could view the putt from the opposite side of the hole which helped as well, but I felt it could be done better to give a more instinctive read. WGT was no improvement and I believe you couldn't turn off the grid anyway. I might be wrong. I even downloaded Links2003 to jog my memory yesterday to see how they grid the green. They, of course, had the 'break line' method which was ok but the putting mechanics had no 'feel' in my opinion.

 

So my question is this. When you are on the green and you move the camera up and down (which no doubt can be done) are you able to read the break with some degree of accuracy? I understand it's hard to get a feel for the slope, uphill or downhill to the hole, on a computer game but if you can walk around the putt I would imagine it would give you some information regarding how much fall or rise there is. The direction of the light source would be important as well. 

 

Thanks in anticipation. Love your work. Willows are fine. Probably longer foliage with less trunk showing. I'm a bit of a graphic designer and might be able to help.

 

 

Thought I'd step on some toes... whilst await K11's reply too...

 

 

The image above is from my Putting Green, as all Greens on my course are flat until I'm happy with how the actual game plays. This will allow me to tweak the necessary slopes I want, to ensure it isn't too difficult etc.

 

The image shows there is a left to right slope, but whether you can see that from the surface or the shadow from the Pin gives it away is how your eyes interpret the view. However, the Pin isn't likely going to be there on those green putts during the game. Also, this view is likely lower than the stance a golfer may take. The slope is the hard part in my opinion.. some may view it as an uphill putt, but it is flatter than you think. It also is downhill the closer you get to the Pin. So in essence, visuals won't show you everything.. but the more you look, the more of an idea you get. I don't think anyone can know exactly where to hit the ball until you get a 'feel' for the greens. I'm also hesitant to talk more about green speeds until the guys at PP allow this. Suffice to say, we know they will vary.. making your read harder to judge until you've played a few.

 

But in view of your Q to K11... there is 'some' kind of accuracy there. I recall Links without grids, and it was a difficult read. Personally, I believe this will be easier to read, but it won't be for everyone.

[Mav78]

absolutely fantastic stuff. I've only just read through this thread for some reason and its safe to say im highly jealous. Hurry CF along now, ill be moaning about release with all the other impatients pretty soon

[Kablammo11]

So my question is this. When you are on the green and you move the camera up and down (which no doubt can be done) are you able to read the break with some degree of accuracy? I understand it's hard to get a feel for the slope, uphill or downhill to the hole, on a computer game but if you can walk around the putt I would imagine it would give you some information regarding how much fall or rise there is. The direction of the light source would be important as well. 

 

Thanks in anticipation. Love your work. Willows are fine. Probably longer foliage with less trunk showing. I'm a bit of a graphic designer and might be able to help.

 

 

Hi Teddy. Thanks for your enthusiasm. Yours too, Mav78.

To answer your question, I must first point out that we know very lilttle about the game -  You are not alone in your contempt of green grids and there is (was, actually, last summer), a strong faction clamouring for a Links-like stick with an arrow to read the greens.

 

I'm certain that you will be given the option to toggle the grid on and off if so you choose. I'm currently testing the Mac version of the pre-alpha PerfectGolf game and switching the green grids off is easier and faster than saying "begone!" out loud.

(Hm, that could be a bit of bombshell, yeah, but that's all I'm willing to say about this atm)

 

Absent the green grid you would need a bit of help, though, to walk about and read the breaks. You mentioned a different camera perspective. That has not been implemented yet - although I'm absolutely certain that this will happen. In pre-alpha, you are mostly stuck behind the ball all the time (Due to the fact that PG started out as an app for golf simulators and now is being brought to the PC, that is quite understandable). But even stuck behind the ball I felt it quite easy to make out the general contours of my putts. Throw into the mix the Fresnel filters in the latest CF updates, adding some elevation sheen, and perhaps even some new-fangled 3D plugins for 2D computer screens and I'd say that once the dust settles around here, you should be able to get a good read of the greens without requiring a grid.

That is my private opinion, though, not an official answer at all.

[Ted_Ball]

Thanks for that reply and screenshot Ian.

I think that gives a fair to good idea of where to putt. I'd certainly aim left of the hole maybe six inches and let it fall off close to the hole. I like it. You say that it is flatter than we might think but, as I said, if you had the ability to walk around the putt it would give you a better idea of up and down. The sun is fairly high in the sky as well which makes it a bit harder to read (as it should).  I can even get a good read on the second closest pin.

You also say that this view is lower than a golfer's stance at address but hopefully there would be a function that allows you to raise and lower the camera for the read. 

We all know that in real life there is a certain amount of guess work with any putt and that's the reason it's such a challenge and gets us back for more - to get better at it. If this game can simulate reading a green and not rely on a grid then it's going to be wonderful.

And a special thanks to all the testers. Great work everyone.

[Ted_Ball]

Thanks KII. I was writing that last reply as you posted.

That's quite exciting. I think this might be a winner this game. 

[Kablammo11]

Teddy, to win with this came, I would urge PP to cater to all the many preferences out there - to give those a grid who want it and to let all those who don't want it have a decent shot at putting by eye. Same with swing methods etc...

They say that computer golf is a niche market, but there are dozens of sub-niches within, some quite decidedly stubborn about how they want things to be. Those who are reading up on the TGC Forums to amuse themselves, like me, will very quickly notice that the old battles we remember from so many other golf games in the past, the old Hatfield-McCoy rivalries, or cattle rustlers vs sheep herders, or Sims versus arcade casuals, are still raging today. It's very funny to read.

The answer, imo, is less gameplay dogma by the designers - and more options for the players.

 

In the meantime, try and read this one (picture resolution corresponds to 1920 game resolution, Mannekin of Sondra not included in the game):

[Ted_Ball]

Hmmm...  tough putt but I love these ones. It's strange. I prefer downhillers. I like to putt to the fall point and let gravity do its thing. It's almost like they take out the calculation needed to get the speed right in flat or uphill putts.

I'd aim towards that little dark spot on the green 'horizon' above 2/3rds along the putter grip. Looks level for quite a way but will tend to the right then will start to trickle down the more severe drop to the hole gathering speed and lip out with a slingshot effect and give me a very tricky 2 1/2 footer back.

This is amazing. It looks like something you would face in real life on my course. Very nice green design K.

Yep...subtle hints to the devs might just work.

[Ted_Ball]

I noticed a stimp meter with a lot of increments in the Perfect Golf Game Play Demo (from Jan 17). That would be a great leap forward if implemented.

[Davefevs]

My first guess at the line on Ian's green was it was a left to righter, so that is promising. It also loons a tad uphill too, so PG might be able to give us a readable green view.

Without too much thought we simply need 4 views, ball to cup, cup to ball, side on left, side on right. The purists out there will probably want more flexibility, but as a starter if PP built this for us to try, we could then give feedback on its playability.

[Kablammo11]

The putt is mostly flat, the first 3rd of it uphill. The further left you aim, however, the more the gravity on that left-hand slope will bend it back to the center line and the cup, so there is a bit of wiggle room on this one. Since I had the luxury of doing a 360 on this one in Unity, I'd say that Teddy's mark is too far out to the left. It felt to me like this would not be more than a foot left from the cup. 

The reason I don't like green textures with mow lines is that they tend to be a bit too helpful in situations like these... Also, back in my days on the golf course, I really sucked at reading subtle breaks. As real life taught us all - or me, at least - being capable of reading a putt in theory does not necessarily mean that you can get the line spot on all of the time.

 

I'm pretty sure that adding different viewpoints should not be a big problem. Even players roaming about the green freely and crouching down behind the ball, to imitate real life, can be imagined. But at the current, very early stage of the game, all these features are not a pressing issue... yet.

Yes, there is a customizable stimp setting in the pre-alpha - also a hardness setting for the ground. I'm sure we'll all be having lots of fun with these...

 

For more exhaustive deliberations on the subject of putts, kindly read up on the threads in the general section of the PG Forums or create a new one. This here is a CF post in the CF forums.

[Kablammo11]

More green reading to help us pass the time, why not?

Read this one, guys:

 

 

Here, let me show you the overshoulder view. It's a real lag putt, this one. And those tree shadows do not help either...  

 

 

I have images with a makeshift grid ready to show you the solution... later. 

Answers on a postcard.