412 replies to this topic

[Richard]

Is there going to be a central course download area where user created courses will be available ? If so where will that be? Steam, PG ?

Will each course have to reside on ones hard drive rather than being accessed online ?

 

The way I understand it, there will not be a 'mandatory' download location. Some may choose, for example 'Dropbox', while others may choose 'Sendspace'. There may be many download locations based on the designer's preference. All I know,  is that I will always copy an extra file (copy) of each course in the PG course folder. Because if my system goes belly up I want to make sure that I have a copy of each and every course that is not downloaded as part of the Steam PG download.

 

Today, I believe that all courses already reside on your local hard drive. That's why I am so adamant about my statement above about having a copy of each course in my course folder.

[sirputterman]

I said it before and I will say it again.

 

A company must charge an annual fee to keep developing a game and supplying players with options. I agreed to pay at least $100.00 a year to play this game as long as I had access to every course ever created. The amount of $100.00 IMHO should cover it all.  Yes there will be monetary modifications that will not meet my expectations. Hey! That's life! The income model changes as a company grows. Some things are tried and discarded and others are fine-tuned because they create the "real revenue".  I accept whatever will come except for one thing - paying for a course directly from another member. Not gonna happen. No way, no how.

 

The old argument was the Links LS and Tiger Woods CD/DVD series where everything came with the initial installation in terms of club choices and clothing. Later on, people got really good with the animations in Links and you could pay for a customized animation.

 

Links custom course designers began to charge for courses. I believe the first person was Mike Jones of PP/PG.

 

The best things PG can do is not create tournaments with paid for courses, not yet any way.

 

Edit: Oh yes! Expect to pay at least $100.00 a year whether it be a "cover all" subscription or to pay for options. The money needs to be made by Perfect Parallel.  SERIOUSLY!  They (PP) need to become financially solvent. If you don't understand that term than you don't understand how a business becomes successful.

"Expect to pay a 100 bucks a year"  not sure  that is a realistic amount  from  everyone  but the serious sim players. I love golf and in the Winter I like playing cyber golf but no way can I or would I play a 100 bucks a year for this game or any game for that matter. 

I really can't see PP expecting everyone to fork out a 100 bucks every year to play. That is the thing though isn't it? 5 bucks a month for the pass or 60 bucks for the year. Then what? Pay to play online fees? Can't see it. Special course packs? Hmm kind of goes against the reason for a season pass doesn't it?  I think 60 bucks a year would be the top end for me and that would be pushing it.  

I would rather put the money into playing real golf then a cyber game and that isn't a knock on PP either as I wouldn't pay a 100 bucks a year for any cyber game period. 

I really hope that a 100 buck a year isn't what will be needed to enjoy the game. Oh I know you have the base game and courses but how long will people play that before the get bored (all ready am with the amount of courses available now) and turn to something else that isn't so expensive for their amusement? Not long i expect.

Look I understand that it takes money to keep things improving but would it have to be such a high figure in order to sustain  the game? If it is then as much as I hope the game continues to grow and succeed I just don't think it's realistic to hope or expect that kind of money from most people .  

[slouis]

It is going to be very interesting with the upcoming animation and the introduction of licensed courses and the season pass.  We don't yet know what the price of licensed courses or the season pass will be but if it is in USD we here in Canada will be hit with the exchange rate which is currently about 1.37 so another consideration.

I hope there is flexibility in regards to terms and discounts.  Although there may be a discount for paying annually I don't really play much cyber golf in the summer when the days are long and I play real golf and participate in other outdoor activities.  Once all the details come out I will be able to evaluate which option is the best for me.

[worrybirdie]

The good news for the devs is its all run through Steam...so we can't go renegade and distribute our courses on a third party site (ala TW 08).  So I guess no grassroots development of courses.

I'm worried.

And BTW...Happy Birthday Lee!

[karma4u]

Well, i have always said that i expect this will be a great game eventually. However, with the money amounts that are being floated around......it better be "exceptional" not just "great"........Personally, i have no problem paying....however...this system as presented is going to have some major problems.....JMO...

That said.........controllers are a big deal.......

[worrybirdie]

Is it even possible that this game running on Steam could support courses downloaded through a third party website?

Just curious.

[bobbywins22]

I don't see that we have to compete with the likes of RM and EA sports - They don't have any user made courses at all. TGC has thousands of user made courses some of them very nice but they're offering an arcade type experience with very limited modes of play. As mentiuoned in my post above, those games have a different revenue model but you still pay one way or another.

You cannot compare CourseForge with other course design programs, it's extremelly powerful and used by Nicklaus design every day in the creation of their courses. If it we had decided to make it a commercial product it would have cost $1000's per license but instead we are releasing it for free.

Why call TGC an arcade game when quite clearly it is not-sounds like a bitchy comment against the opposition to me.It looks like your going to loose a lot players cos of the pay to play user courses plan-shame really

[Golden Bear]

Why call TGC an arcade game when quite clearly it is not-sounds like a bitchy comment against the opposition to me.It looks like your going to loose a lot players cos of the pay to play user courses plan-shame really

 

I have 600 hours played on The Golf Club.  Mike is correct in saying TGC is an arcade experience.

[frank70]

Warning first: This is going to be a long read.

 

I've been into marketing professionally for the last 20 years. In the last 10 years i have specialized into creating concepts for websites. I have customers who want to sell products through the website (some of these enterprises are well known around the world) and i have customers who want to sell an image/brand over the website (mostly sport clubs, and single sport professionals - one of them is a well known golfer). I don't tell you that to be a smartass - but more to make you know that my following post is based on professional knowledge and experience.

 

Customer base: The most important thing for every product in the world. The bigger, the better.

 

Perfect Golf was purchased around 12.000 times so far (I have read that number here in the forum). Is that much? It's a good start i would say for a niche game. But if you compare it to really successful games ....  it is not that much. So if i were PP my first and most important goal would be to push this number up to at least 50.000 units sold. With a price policy and a business model which isn't aligned too maximize profit at release but more aligned to maximize the customer base without making too many losses financially in this process.

 

Know your customers/ Know your target group

 

When you look at the lobby, 100 people online simultaniously is seldom reached.

When you look at the tournament fields over at OGT there are probably no more than 400 registered players. Even when we assume that we can increase that number when official tournaments by Perfect Parallel are starting i would say that maybe 1000 of 12.000 customers would take part.

 

What does that mean: It means that around 11.000 customers don't play online or in online tournaments. They play offline. 

Conclusion: A vast majority have not that much interest in online multiplayer, online tournaments, country clubs etc.

 

Know the products of your competitors and identify where your product is better and where it is worse (take public perception into account)

 

Comparison:

 

Golf ball physics and swing mechanic: Even though some little things have still to be looked at, PG is better than EAs game and TGC. And it is not even close. Huge plus for PG and should be the main point marketing the game.

 

Graphics: I like the natural look of PG. But i would say that the majority of gamers and probably the majority of gaming sites that will ultimately rate PG and compare it with other games will say that the graphics of the other games are superior (more flashy, more detailed in textures). Graphics are an important thing to many gamers - so this could hinder sales.

 

Modes of play: Sure, PG has a lot of different modes. But what does it bring to an offline gamer? I can play 18 holes .... an that's it. EA has an career mode (although it's not good), TGC has a season mode (although it is horrible). But so far and at release PG probably has nothing.

 

Courses: TGC has an abundance ... for free. The quality is another story. EA doesn't have many but they have it licensed with tournament buildings/atmosphere. PG so far has 10.

 

The season pass business model suggests that the customer doesn't get any more than that without paying extra (be it by the season pass or by DLC). Don't expect the big gaming sites to not point that out.

 

Conclusion: If it is true, that the majority of customers is more into offline gaming: What would they want to have? They would want to have a mode that is more than just playing 18 holes on the same courses again and again. And of course they would like to play on more different courses. Is it smart to force them to pay 4,99 $ per month just to get access to these courses? Knowing that they are not very interested in the other things the season pass has? Or would it be smarter to maybe charge 0,99 $ for every course download of user made courses and maybe more for licensed courses.

 

The next potential 20.000 to 30.000 customers have to be persuaded to buy PG. And the package right now is: At least 19.99 $ to get the game. And then 60 $ a year to get more courses to play on. All this hoping that a good career mode is in the pipeline - cause this is a important game mode for the majority of gamers.

 

Please don't get me wrong. I love PG, i love the dedication and passion of Mike and Andrew for the game. But i would say that the business model they envision is not for the better for them and consequently for us hardcore fans of the game neither. The business model imho hinders the growth of the customer base - which is a business decision you should never, never ever make as a company. 

[Kablammo11]

from Acrilix

 

This is terrible news. I won't even be able to play my own designs with my brother and mate unless they buy a pass each month. I guess that's the end of my designing before I've even begun, and I just installed Unity 5 a couple of days ago.

 

That was the one point that caused the most heated discussion when the scheme was introduced to the private testers a while ago. As long as you consider isolated bits about the whole deal, yes, there are parts of it that perhaps ought to be refined. The one you described is one of them. Then again, if you really want to build a course exclusive to an audience of three - you, your brother and your mate - and play only on courses of this kind and never on any others, then surely you would have to accept the fact that this would make you a fringe minority - and that the PP pricing scheme can't possibly allow for individual exceptions in each and every case. 

Looking at the big picture you may see that you pay an initial (small) price to acquire the core game with a professional course design tool included, and an additional (small), regular license fee (called season pass) to keep playing it in the long term, plus getting new courses, designing them yourself and securing the further development of the game. 

 

The OP started this thread, which unexpectedly became very informative, with the accusation "Paying for user-made courses?". The correct answer, at least the way I see it (and was unable to provide due to NDA restrictions), would be "No, paying for everything and nothing - paying to grow the game while keeping to play it." This was always going to be a nasty point in time and a hard sell, when PP had to finally put a price tag on things. "What the Deuce? These people dare to ask for money for their years of work?"

 

What is the value, in dollars, of a game like PG and of its CF course designer? Everyone has his own ideas about this. Though, as others further above have commented, if you were to break down these dollars into fractions per hour played you would find in any case that golf games offer a surprisingly good value, well superior to other forms of enjoyment.

 

Here's the way I found out for myself if I'm in or not: I was a paying member of TW Online for 2.5 years. The subscription fee for a year cost me 50$. Or, roughly 8 cents per hour played. With the PG season pass priced at 5$ per month and reductions for bulk buyers already hinted at, chances are that a yearly membership at PP will roughly cost the same for those who are willing to commit to a full 12 months (my guesstimation, not an official number). However, over at TWO, my investment of 6 cents/hour gave me 3 play modes, a piss-poor multiplayer online experience, a total of 15 golf courses and a rather easy arcade-style game that was not very challenging, a troll-riden Forums with utterly clueless devs. And no course designer! For the same price of a few cents per hour I am now offered to buy from PG a game with vastly superior physics, dynamic weather and night golf, countless play modes, a playing experience that does not require loading times after each hole and potentially thousands of golf courses that all will look considerably better than TWO's very sloppy renditions. AND a course design tool that lets me paint my own dreams into the game.

And on top of that, this is the ONE golf game that can be played on a PC AND also works on a Mac.

 

So, after considering this, when asking myself if this was a deal I am willing to accept, I said to myself: "Hell, yeah!"

[Tretee]

I guess we all interprete the season pass in diffrent ways.
For me season pass = CF fee. Why? Because that is the only part of it that has any value for me.
Worth it? I don't know but I intend to pay and find out.

[Ted_Ball]

It's potentially a huge market out there. How huge? Huge. It seems that even our tiny little hardcore of fans are umming and ahrring. Sometimes a voice like frank70 is the voice that you should turn your ear to.

 

I've said it before. The world is your oyster. Your popularity will ALWAYS be your fortune.

[Acrilix]

@K11 - I never said that I wanted to build a course exclusive to me, my brother and my mate. I have always given far more than most to the communities I have been involved with. Unfortunately, with this system there are three people involved in my situation and I can't decide for them, short of paying for three passes. I have no interest in playing online golf without them, or designing courses that they, under this system would be excluded from playing. We can carry on playing the base game and that is fine, but course design on PG is now not an option for me at present - just when I had convinced myself that it would be. That was the point that I was making. Fortunately, I can still go back to TGC if I want to continue designing courses that we can all play.

[frank70]

One addition:

 

What the "superior product" is isn't determined by the publishing company .... it's determined by the customer. I could bet that the standard video gamer couldn't care less how many bucks the CF would cost if it would be charged "properly". The normal customer of a golf game wants to play golf - only a fraction wants or has the time to design courses. So for the vast majority the CF is only a vehicle to create content - nothing more.

 

I more and more get the feeling that PP doesn't know exactly their potential target group ..... or that growth of the customer base isn't their main goal because they think that the number of people that already have bought the game is big enough to guarantee enough profit.

 

Sometimes it's good to take a step aside and try to look at a certain subject as dispassionate as possibly. What yourself or your "fanbase" is thinking isn't always the same what maybe 99 % of the others are thinking. I'm in the "fanbase" and still think that we - who post in the forum regularly or taking part in online tournaments - are only a fraction of the customer base. And not the most representative fraction. Time to develop ideas to get the other 99 % more involved and more important: Time to make many, many thousands golf gamers out there as passionate about the game as we are. Do you accomplish that with a 4,99 $ per month fee to play a game? I don't think so.

 

Especially because i fear that PG will be rated lower by the big gaming sites than TGC. These play testers aren't golfers that play video games as us - they mostly are video gamers that maybe like to play some golf on PC. Bells and whistles and graphics get the high scores - not a powerful course designer. Combine that with a monthly fee which the competitor isn't charging ......  i don't know if this is going in the right direction.

[LeazesNDR]

Seems to me this is a similar scheme to that  APCD Courses thing...  only more expensive.

I'm in regardless but I think PP are dropping a big boo boo with this season pass malarky.

[Griz891]

I would guess the rewards are more in favor of those Course Forge Beta Testers. By the time we get our hands on it they will have way more knowledge of it then the beginners when it does become available. I'd have to say advantage testers. Monthly or yearly fees I just don't get. Paying for licensed courses, sure that I can see. I know everyone thinks TGC is a **** game, but you buy it  once, which includes a course designer and have access to thousands upon thousands of FREE courses to play. Granted, about 75% of the free courses are garbage, but if you ever go to there hb-studios.com and the course discovery forums, you will see the best courses by some awesome designers there that are more than worth the price of the game to play. I was skeptical for along time but am glad I bought it. Dont' get me wrong, I truly believe that PG is by far the superior video golf game, but lets face it, people are going to look for what's worth the affordable price and what there going to get for that price. I really doubt a whole lot of your average golf sim players are going to want to dole out money every month, year, 2 years, whatever the plan is when there's others available for 1 price with lots of extras. 

[Ted_Ball]

I guess you would ask yourself...would I rather be a world-wide phenomenon or a niche short term cash cow which may be usurped by the next publisher. Give it away and they will come. Ted Ball's philosophy of computer game world dominance.

[IanK]

The problem with TGC is that the game itself is so simplistic and arcady that it didn't inspire me to create many courses for it.

I've never liked paying for extras that should be in the full game. I especially hate those apps you can buy that gives you the 'basic' game for free, but if you want to progress you have to start spending money. I'd much rather pay for the game upfront.

Regarding PG I don't really like the idea of a 'season pass' but PP have got to make their money from somewhere I suppose. I would rather pay them for the complete game and CF (£40-£50 maybe) and just buy additional courses, updates and kit as I feel the need.

[frank70]

• Sell the game for 29.99 $
• Sell it with 15 courses included
• Charge 0.99 for every user made course
• Charge maybe 3,99 for every licensed course
• Charge maybe 1,99 for a different looking iron set (we won't have company names in the game but we could have clubs that look like say "Nike" in the game
• Charge 0.49 for each different looking putter
• implement different swings into the game over time (mo-cap) - charge 2,99 for alternative looking swing motions
• implement a real innovative and realistic "PGA TOUR" single-player-mode. Charge 9.99 for that.
• etc.

 

and then finally:

• make a season pass available which grants access to online tournaments, country clubs etc. make that  2.99 per month (the hardcore gamers will pay it without blinking an eye, some others might try it out for that price)

 

This would be a model of microstransaction. You want to play on a good user created course? 0.99 isn't a big deal - 4.99 per month is maybe. When you have, say, 30.000 customers i could bet that you can create at least as many revenue with microtransaction as with forcing them to pay 4.99. And they still have the freedom to decide everytime if they want to buy or not (very important!).

 

And for the passionate gamer it would be certainly no barrier to pay 2.99 additionally to get the right to participate in online tournaments etc.

[clubcaptain]

The way I understand it, there will not be a 'mandatory' download location. Some may choose, for example 'Dropbox', while others may choose 'Sendspace'. There may be many download locations based on the designer's preference. All I know,  is that I will always copy an extra file (copy) of each course in the PG course folder. Because if my system goes belly up I want to make sure that I have a copy of each and every course that is not downloaded as part of the Steam PG download.

 

Today, I believe that all courses already reside on your local hard drive. That's why I am so adamant about my statement above about having a copy of each course in my course folder.

So how do the course designers notify all PG game owners that their course is available. Surely this is going to fracture access to courses so much that only a few will ever get to know about them ?

I don't see any courses on my hard drive. Whereabouts would I find them ?