412 replies to this topic

[Ansley]

I can see some of the arguments on both sides. I'm all for funding if it helps to continue to develop the game and keep them afloat. I am a career mode guy and am patiently waiting for that to come. If they nail an awesome, fully edited PGA TOUR mode as Frank mentioned, I will have no issue paying the fee.

 

In the end, it sounds like we would mostly be paying for the CourseForge license. If a license copy costs $1000, the design community gets to use it for "free", and the people playing the game get to use the courses made on the "free" copies of the software. Eventually someone has to foot the bill.

 

I am concerned with how he public in general will perceive this, as Frank made alot of good points. Whatever happens, I hope it works out for the game and it continues to grow.

 

Selfish plug, but Andrew/Mike, please give us a good career mode!

[NoPutt]

User courses are not necessarily fictional courses, some are real and 

popular names and cannot be sold without a licence. PP gives us a way

to have these courses played and enjoyed without the possibility of

legal intervention, while also compensating the designer if yet to be

determined criteria is met. This criteria for fictional and real courses

I assume will be lenient in the beginning and that bar will be raised as

designers become more advanced in techniques of CF. PP will not be

judging every user course, but if a designer feels his course may

warrant judgement he/she may submit the course to PP for evaluation

that may gain him/her rewards. There is also plenty of help and instruction

available to get a course to completion, and also many ways to gain rewards

other than the course designer route. There is one sure way to be recognized

and gain rewards from PP and the community, as Dalton said in Roadhouse,

"Be Nice".

[JoeF]

You know, there is a very simple solution to all this "pay to play" wailing and gnashing of teeth.  

 

Perfect Parallel simply sells the Course Forge to designers.  They would no longer have to restrict usage of the courses to those with a season pass.  After paying the $1,000.00 - $2,000.00 dollars for the software designers would now be able to give their courses away for free and all users of PG could now play all those free courses with no restrictions whatsoever! 

 

Access to PG's social site, tours, country clubs, etc would still require a season pass.  

[NoPutt]

You know, there is a very simple solution to all this "pay to play" wailing and gnashing of teeth.  

 

Perfect Parallel simply sells the Course Forge to designers.  They would no longer have to restrict usage of the courses to those with a season pass.  After paying the $1,000.00 - $2,000.00 dollars for the software designers would now be able to give their courses away for free and all users of PG could now play all those free courses with no restrictions whatsoever! 

 

Access to PG's social site, tours, country clubs, etc would still require a season pass.  

I can tell you're serious Joe, count me in....not. 

[mebby]

There isn't any. I'm just telling it as it is. They will be free to download (as some folks think they have to pay for them) but to play them you need a pass.

Not my decision. You need to contact PP.

Yea... Agree. I quoted your post but it was really just a general question. I think they should reverse the way they've worded it. You have to pay to play user created content but you can download it for free if the designer so chooses.

[wim1234]

Oh but the user courses are free, and we are allowed to give them away for free,

and there are many ways to contribute to the PP community to be able to gain

passes for free. 

sorry but its clear you do not undertsnad what i am saying, wel, its the businessmen against the civilian again, it seems.

no need to discuss this any further, stones cannot listen, sorry peeps.

i too get the feeling of being manipaulated. as vernon did. ah well, we will see how it goes

[sirputterman]

Mike has said they will not be controlling user course output. Users will be able to create and release their courses as they see fit. Yes they will need to find somewhere to host the course file for download as PP will not be doing this for them and will not be vetting them prior to their release AFAIK. Courses will be free to download.

 

It just requires a season pass to be able to play them.

Lol isn't that the same as saying your sort of pregnant? Either you are or your not. I mean sure you can create courses for free, you can share the courses for free buuutt ..... wait for it .... you just cant play or test them without paying to do so. That would be like someone saying here is a new car for free, were just going to charge you 30,000 for the keys and the rights to be able to move it off the lot. The car is free though. This is practically the same thing from my understanding is what PP is saying. The car or CF is free but the keys or the  piratical ability to be able to use CF isn't. Neither are of much use to have one without having the other.

 

Perhaps the wording of all this by PP is necessary for legal technicalities I have no idea. But to Joe consumer it's just comes across a bit  like a play on words. I'm not saying this is PP intentions as I'm sure it isn't but again surely one can see the irony in this. You can design for free, you can share for free, you just have no way of playing it or testing it for free.   Quoting from Monty Python "nudge nudge,wink, wink know what I mean, know what I mean?

[sirputterman]

I have asked this in another post and I apologize if it has been answered but I just may have missed it, but does the Season pass include both user made courses and licensed courses. In other words any course available for PP would be included at no EXTRA charge if you have the season pass? 

If that is the case then that is more then fair, however if the season pass is only for user made courses only and not for licensed courses then I would have to do some serious consideration on the whole deal.   

[axe360]

From what i understand the "season pass" is for User Created Courses and if your a designer, then also the ability to play test your course in the game.. The Licensed courses will be part of the Core game. So you really don't have to have a season pass unless you design or want to play the User Created Courses... That's how I understood it..

[Mike Jones]

What effectively we're doing is putting the future of the game into the hands of the course designers who will be able to play the game for free. 

 

The only people I can see complaining are the ones who do not understand the principle or the ones who have no intention of designing a course and just want to play the game and the courses other people make for it. 

[✠ davef ✠]

where can i buy this pass im ready to roll.lol

get over it guys if they don't make any money we have no game pretty simple to understand.

lets go im ready for some new courses

[Kelson64]

What effectively we're doing is putting the future of the game into the hands of the course designers who will be able to play the game for free. 

 

The only people I can see complaining are the ones who do not understand the principle or the ones who have no intention of designing a course and just want to play the game and the courses other people make for it. 

Mike, you don't put the future of the game into the hands of course designers . . you (and the employees of Perfect Parallel) make original content that you can sell. This can be courses, shafts, grips, balls, clothes, animations etc . . . but no, you're using other people's creativity, time investment, emotional investment and dedication for your own monetary gain. Don't try to deny it, because it would be a lie, and you know it.

 

Let me ask you a question, Mike? How long have you known of this season pass? I'm guessing you've known about it for a good, long while. Why are you just now revealing info about the season pass? I'm guessing it's because you knew that if you had revealed it earlier, you would not have gotten as many people to bite for Early Access. So, you held off until just before release, and then sprung it on the community. This is the epitome of poor ethics and lack of morals.  You, Mr. Mike Jones, should be ashamed of yourself.

[sirputterman]

So I have to ask larry if the licensed courses would not be an extra charge over and above the season pass then why is the one new licensed course up for sale? 

Again if Mike or Andrew would please settle this for my peace of mind. Season Pass = All courses including licensed courses or

Season Pass = just user courses and course forge but licensed course are an extra fee.

As I have said if it was all inclusive ie CF, user, and licensed courses for 4.99 then that is a fair price. Realistically you would be paying just for the licensed courses and CF and user courses would be free with the pass.      

[Domino]

What effectively we're doing is putting the future of the game into the hands of the course designers who will be able to play the game for free. 
 
The only people I can see complaining are the ones who do not understand the principle or the ones who have no intention of designing a course and just want to play the game and the courses other people make for it.

Mike, can you please explain how "course designers will be able to play the game for free" when they have to buy a season pass to play test there course creations, before submitting it for "scrutiny to see if its any good" to get to play the game for free. Seems a bit of a catch 22 situation

[Mike Jones]

Mike, you don't put the future of the game into the hands of course designers . . you (and the employees of Perfect Parallel) make original content that you can sell. This can be courses, shafts, grips, balls, clothes, animations etc . . . but no, you're using other people's creativity, time investment, emotional investment and dedication for your own monetary gain. Don't try to deny it, because it would be a lie, and you know it.

 

Let me ask you a question, Mike? How long have you known of this season pass? I'm guessing you've known about it for a good, long while. Why are you just now revealing info about the season pass? I'm guessing it's because you knew that if you had revealed it earlier, you would not have gotten as many people to bite for Early Access. So, you held off until just before release, and then sprung it on the community. This is the epitome of poor ethics and lack of morals.  You, Mr. Mike Jones, should be ashamed of yourself.

Its convenient for you to completely ignore my point regarding the designers - you do know that designers of courses will be able to have free season passes? 

 

You don't have to have a season pass to enjoy the game - no one who has access to CF for free has to make any courses. We are leaving all the choices in the hands of the people who play the game. We could have charged 3 times as much for the core game or we could have sold addons for CF or we could have sold magic balls and tees in the pro shop but were not doing that. We could have charged people to use CF but then that doesn't seem fair to the designers does it?

 

You fail to understand the basic concept of a community game - people who contribute to it get to design and play the game they want for free and we can keep on developing the game. See how many golf games have survived in the past by having a course design program?

 

You already know the answer to this of course. Stop with the knee jerk reactions without considering everything involved. How many courses  are available for TGC? How many were created by HB - do you seriously think that being able to play all the user made courses has no impact on people buying the game? Is it ok that HB studios profit from the work of others? You see things are not quite as clear cut as they may seem. If your mind is made up so be it, but to misrepresent the situation the way you are doing is not very fair.

[frank70]

What effectively we're doing is putting the future of the game into the hands of the course designers who will be able to play the game for free. 

 

The only people I can see complaining are the ones who do not understand the principle or the ones who have no intention of designing a course and just want to play the game and the courses other people make for it. 

Mike do you think that the amount and the quality of the courses are the most important thing for potential customers?

 

I would be very interested in your opinion how you would classify/rate the attractivity of PG release version for offline gamers. I just think that the offline gamers are the majority. I don't see that much incentive for them to buy a season pass to be honest. If that would be the case you are losing potential customers. I don't know if you could get them back maybe a year down the road when a single-player career mode is maybe in the game.

 

I get the concept of a season pass. Other games come with a game every year at full price (Madden, NBA2K, etc.). Financially there is not that much of a difference. But the intense discussion here in the forum between guys who really love this game is probably just the beginning. When you release the game the pricing model will be evaluated by the big gaming sites. I hope everything goes as you have planned. It would be a pity if the season pass would harm the growth of the player base and the growth of the game.

[RobV]

Mike has said they will not be controlling user course output. Users will be able to create and release their courses as they see fit. Yes they will need to find somewhere to host the course file for download as PP will not be doing this for them and will not be vetting them prior to their release AFAIK. Courses will be free to download.

 

It just requires a season pass to be able to play them.

And what good is that do if someone doesn't/can't pay the season pass?  

 

Nevermind.. you answered the same question already.. 

[KenR]

Obviously a lot of varied opinions on this subject; it's made for some interesting reading.

 

In no way would I attempt to tell Mike and AJ how they should market their game; PG has been their creation and vision for quite some time and they have invested untold hours and a number of years on this project. It's their "baby" and their decisions on how to proceed with a viable project that can last for years is something they have obviously spent a lot of time considering.​

 

From my perspective I simply have to ask myself if I consider PG and the financial model being offered worth it. PG is rounding out to be a fabulous golf game; I expected nothing less from Mike and AJ. It's still in it's infancy and is and will continue to be improved and polished over the coming years. Having said that, right now it's already become a golf game I love playing... and it cost me the exorbitant price of $19.99 for early access and the fun and pleasure of playing the game since it was made available. And, that's all I'll ever have to pay for the game itself. Updates and improvements to the game are mine to receive for the life of the game. Quite a deal....

 

As for the upcoming Season Pass fee: I have no problem with this concept, and have looked at all the arguments pro and con from those who have voiced their opinions on it. Paying a monthly fee to have access to everything the game has to offer with the exception of licensed courses as a way to fund the future development of the game is not a problem to me. $4.99 (if that is the monthly price to come), or $59.88 a year, is an acceptable price to pay for a great golf game on a yearly basis, and I suspect that an annual pay in advance plan with a discount of perhaps up to 20% off might be an option, further sweetening the deal. It's a matter of semantics: the developers need a revenue source to continue to be able to make the game a viable product for years to come and this is a fair way to do it. The debate over free user created courses, the CF program, etc. to me is all a moot point. The question for me is: am I willing to pay what to me is a small fee on a yearly basis to have access to user created courses I would like to add and play in the game, along with adding a licensed course such as Augusta National (for example) for a small fee, worth it? The answer is an unequivocal yes: it's a no brainer. I'm more than willing to pay what they are asking for this privilege; it's worth it and just not that expensive for an entertainment product that will give me hours upon hours of enjoyment each year and provide a revenue source for the developers to keep the game going in the coming years.

 

I think each person has to ask themselves that question: Is the annual price being asked to pay for PG in this form worth it? For me the answer is yes, easily. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and this model and price are more than fair.

[remers]

If you've made the decision PP why not just crack on with it and put it out there?

 

Make the season pass payment option live along with the new, user created courses (you must have about 15 or 20 by now) and courseforge regardless of its current state (people have produced things with it up to now so it can't be far off)  and see what the take-up is like.

 

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of this type of payment model but we'll all have to go with it if that's how it is.  I do fear that you're putting obtacles in the way of new players joining but to hell with it!  I've read enough of this thread with too'ing and fro'ing over the rights and wrongs and you would have taken on board the various views I'm sure. It won't make any difference to your decision in the short term especially if a number of testers have already expressed similar views to those stated here.

 

You make your choices and the game will succeed or fail based on them (I sincerely hope it succeeds), so crack on, make it live and those that want the new courses and are willing to pay the season pass can start to play them.

[Kelson64]

Mike,

Yes, you say HB Studious is profiting off of user-created courses that the community designers make for the game. This is very true. However, when HB Studios were developing The Golf Club, they made sure to let designers know very early in the development process how sharing courses would work. That being said, designers knew from the outset that their creations would be freely shared over the three versions of the game (PS4, Xbox One and PC). They didn't come out and reveal their plan for course-sharing shortly before the final release of the game. They are not making profit off designer's work, they are making profit off the features offered and stated well before release.

 

You say designers of courses will have free season passes. That's fantastic. But didn't you also earlier say that Perfect Parallel would decide which of these designs were season-pass-worthy? That's not good enough. Furthermore, what about the people who beta test these course designs? What about the people who do textures and other library items? (Pardon the ignorance if users can't create their own textures etc in Course Forge, but I assume they can).

 

Let me be clear. I have no problem paying for a season pass. But I absolutely believe that any season pass should be for creations specifically made by the Perfect Parallel team. As I stated earlier, you created Course Forge, so obviously everything created with Course Forge is technically your intellectual property. However, the designs themselves are 100% the labor and creative process of the designer. I fail to see how you can directly profit from that with a clear conscious. That you're even considering doing so boggles the mind.

 

If you want to have a season pass . . fine. But make sure that from top to bottom, beginning to end, the products and services offered with the purchase of a season pass are 100% creations of Perfect Parallel. I'm sorry, but even though Course Forge is your creation, any courses made by the community designers are not 100% the creations of Perfect Parallel. I'm sure you will have some legal wording that will debunk this . . but it doesn't mean it's right. It's unethical and immoral.

 

If you want money, earn it. What you're basically doing is stealing money from the community course designers, or preying on their sense of community and using it against them. Nothing you say will ever convince me otherwise.

 

Why didn't you release your business plan months ago? I bet I know. Because you knew the community would react like it has, and instead of 30 courses for the season pass, you were worried you wouldn't have as many. You're probably right, so you basically withheld information and hoped people would enjoy the Early Access so much that they would forgive you for withholding said information. As I stated earlier, you should be ashamed of yourselves.