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#41 tlvx

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 07:37 AM

In the pro shop there will be equipment available which will act just like they do IRL so you can take some spin off the shots with a different head design or shaft flexpoint. They won't give an advantage per se but you will be able to customise your game the way you prefer to play.

 

Adding more spin to long irons, or; less spin to wedges... would be a huge advantage over the default equipment.

 

Adding a bigger mishit window to a given club is a massive advantage over the default equipment.

 

I just don't see how, the expectation is to keep the platform fair; whilst, obvious equipment improvements are being considered, for those willing to pay extra for it.

 

Anything that modifies the physics of the game would be an advantage, unless each improvement came with a penalty in another area.

 

The only way to create a fair advantage... is, if there is a built in disadvantage somewhere else. (i.e. more spin but less power)

 

The attribute trade-off is the only thing that will keep this game from becoming yet another money-over-fairness platform.



#42 IanD

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 07:51 AM

A stiffer shaft gives your balls more power... is that what you mean ?



#43 Dazmaniac

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 10:06 AM

A stiffer shaft gives your balls more power... is that what you mean ?

Oooh err missus.

:lol:

#44 clubcaptain

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 10:58 AM

Oooh err missus.

 

Good one Daz. Now other than you and I does anyone else know who that line comes from ?


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#45 bortimus

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 12:09 PM

Thank you for the response and explanation Mike.  Motion swing does present a conundrum and would make it impossible to find a equitable solution. 

 

It's unfortunate that the overswing is rarely used because it has great temptation potential if the payoff was bigger.  Right now it feels there is too much of a risk and no one goes there.  As someone mentioned earlier, the 3 wood offers no distance benefit even on a 122% perfect snap.   

 

Since it can't be outright eliminated, slightly toning down the currently amplified mishit penalty at the highest ranges would give the player more legitimate options on the meter. 

 

Thanks again and keep up the great work!



#46 Dazmaniac

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 08:09 PM

On topic (unlike my earlier post, lol)

Watching the FedEx from Plainfield CC. Just watching Robert Streb, Jimmy Walker and Justin Rose all teeing of with Driver on a hole where they have the gizmo's setup.

Streb
Club Speed = 118 MPH
Ball Speed = 173 MPH
Carry = 280 YDS

Walker
Club Speed = 115 MPH
Ball Speed = 170 MPH
Carry = 272 YDS

Rose
Club Speed = 119 MPH
Ball Speed = 172 MPH
Carry = 292 YDS

After watching the above on TV, I went to the range and did a quick test.

100% hit got 168 MPH ball speed
122% hit got 176 MPH ball speed.

Not sure what the logistics are but could the ball speed be increased slightly in the overswing zone as then I think this would see a full out over swing getting a more appropriate distance gain than what is seen at present.

Found this Track man chart regards driver fitting and the optimal numbers expected.

rwta3d.png

Looking at the above chart I would say PP's carry distance is on the money without over swing, but maybe the roll distance of the Driver is a little shy of what it should be as I only normally get about 15yds of roll on the Driver on the range with Normal firmness.
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#47 bortimus

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 06:17 PM

Daz, the culprit might be several things (not sure how they are connected)

 

Hit a bunch of different trajectories until I could get good snaps for each  (between .1% and .35% deviation)   (on min/min, calm sidewind) 

 

At 122% the driver ALWAYS had 176 mph ball speed and 2686 spin no matter the trajectory/snap miss/ axis/ path/ face

 

Lowest trajectory

Launch angle (LA) 8 degrees

Carry/Total    281/296

 

Normal default trajectory

LA- 11 degrees

Carry/Total- 288/303

 

Highest Trajectory

LA- 14 degrees

Carry/Total- 291/303 

 

 

Looks like 122% is representing around 120 mph clubhead speed based on the ball speed (I stand corrected) 

 

But based on the launch angles and spin rates, normal and high shots should be carrying much further than they do now.   

 

And as you said, the ball speeds don't match at the higher launch angles.

 

This still doesn't explain the anomaly of the 3 wood going nowhere with 122%  :huh:



#48 bortimus

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 06:46 PM

I didn't mention Angle of Attack because we aren't given those numbers and I'm not sure how or if it's factored into the PG engine.  It seems to be one of the most important variables.  I wonder if it's set at a constant value? 

 

The carry values at the higher launch angles surprised me a bit.  I certainly don't want the game to become arcade-ey with ridiculous distances, but the numbers are off.

 

If a player can control a 122%  shot with good snap (at the toughest settings I think it's 1% or less), they deserve to be further down the fairway when their timing is on. 



#49 bortimus

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 08:53 PM

I know, more drivel :rolleyes:

 

For what it's worth, if we base the 122% ball speed of 176 mph on the tour average smash factor (1.483)  it means we are swinging at 118.7 mph at the top of the meter IF we miss the snap below the ball speed penalty threshold.  This means the absolute best smash factor you can achieve is the tour average.    

 

The ball speed penalty threshold is the minimum % of snap miss before ball speed starts to decrease.  This DOESN'T factor in carry loss due to offline ball curve, only ball speed loss. 

 

Here's the best I could do (the point where ball speed starts to decrease)

 

Tour Pro- 0.44%  (snap arrow still covers the whole snap line, just slightly askew from center)

 

MIN/MIN- 2.48%  (Bottom 1/2 of snap line is visible. Top is still covered by the arrow)

 

MOD/MOD- 5.2%  (I know this isn't a standard level. Just testing things)  

 

MAX/MAX-  NEVER.  :o  Ball speed never decrease no matter how bad the snap is.  Carry loss is due solely to ball curve.



#50 bortimus

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 09:19 PM

sigh... more...

 

I realize that smash factor and clubhead speed aren't related.  Some short knockers have high smash factors and vice versa.  Here's what's interesting though.

 

IF we are swinging at 118.7 mph...

 

At the tour pro level,  if the snap is missed at .91%, the smash factor plummets to 1.449 which is 195th on tour (almost last)

 

At 1.25% snap miss the smash factor goes to 1.432  Doesn't even make the list on the PGA tour.  

 

I know, I know, Tour Pro is supposed to be extremely difficult, and it is.  But whoa the ball speed drop is incredible for a Tour Pro only having a slight miss of timing. 

 

So the game doesn't allow for an inaccurate long player at the highest levels because the smash factor drops too much for even the slightest mishits. 



#51 Andrew

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 12:42 AM

You are trying to compare a timing miss of a golf swing at 100 mph with three clicks of a mouse. If we gave you a much wider area of leeway everyone would be pounding the ball down the middle on the toughest setting. What's the point of that. If people want to play the game that way we offer much more forgiveness at lower settings. Maybe what we can do is allow you to trade distance loss for wider misses
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#52 bortimus

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 01:19 AM

Andrew my intention isn't to have everyone just crushing every shot without any sort of consequence.  Not at all.  That would be incredibly boring.  I don't wont wider leeway if the gain is really really worth it.

 

I like to play on the higher difficulties and would like to see players with really good snap be able to "distance" (ugh pun) themselves from others if they wish to go for it.  That's a totally legitimate advantage in golf.  No one is doing that because it's not really rewarded. 

 

If everyone hits driver off the tee, playing from basically the same distance away in the fairway or rough on most holes isn't really representative of how a golf match plays out. 

 

Right now we can't play as a long hitter on the highest settings with the overswing penalty/overswing distance being what it is.  Especially with the precipitous drop in ball speed for a very small mishit.  You could either increase the ball speed, clubhead speed, or angle of attack and leave the accuracy penalty to the way it is.  I don't think fast swingers lose that much ballspeed for a small mishit. 

 

Remember I'm only talking about the overswing, not default distances.  It would still be really really hard to pull it off consistently.

 

Earlier mentions of shaft/clubhead/ball options for individualizing your player's strengths/weakness sounds interesting.  I would still prefer increasing the maximum clubhead speed available since there's no debate about who can hit it father with whatever equipment.  It's all up to snap.

 

Thanks for your response and whether or not anything changes, such a great game! 


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#53 Crow357

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 02:13 AM

They've said there will be things you can get for your golfer, balls, shafts, clubs that you can use to customize your golfer.  those things are coming.


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#54 Ansley

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 02:04 PM

While I am a bad player, is it even possible to score an eagle on a par 5 by getting on the green in two? I'm on motion swing and have never had the opportunity. I'm not looking to shoot -40 under par and cheese the game, but if I want to pattern my golfer after a long hitter, there should be a way to do so in the game.

 

As we see on a weekly basis and over the years, hitting it longer does not guarantee you will win, but it adds to the intrigue of the sport and displays how different the players are. Different swings, different overall ability, different strengths and weaknesses in one's game. It also brings out course management and how a player takes those abilities and plays a certain course. All of it mixed together is what makes the sport unpredictable and great.

 

I understand why some online players may be worried, but as an offline player, hopefully some of the things discussed on top of some more tweaking will change how this part of the game currently works.


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#55 Dazmaniac

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 02:14 PM

My main two minor gripes are that there doesn't seem to enough roll on the drives (I usually only see 14/15 yds on the range) and if you venture in to the over swing, for an extra 20% power, there seems very little gain. No surprise that we read of very few folks hitting shots with much over swing.

 

If PP are to leave things as they are, so be it, the game is still great so far, but I will feel it just comes up short for me personally in these two areas.


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#56 bortimus

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 02:38 PM

It becomes a hot topic when people envision the game becoming a farce if everyone can hit accurate long drives all the time.  I assure you this wouldn't be the case if implemented correctly. 

 

Back in post #40, MIke mentioned that they could speed up the downswing click meter (if you overswung) but they can't do that with the motion swing without messing with the timing ratio. 

 

What they could have is a dedicated shot option button in the menu that is called "Maximum effort" or whatever (I'm sure there's a better term)  that changes the meter to a COMPLETELY different speed and likewise changes the tempo required for a motion swinger.   It would also change the clubhead speed ranges attainable along with appropriate penalties for mishits. 

 

We already have this in a slower version with the pitch swing option.  The speeds/ tempos are totally different. 

 

Having a faster moving (and thus harder to time) meter for clickers and a different (faster?) ratio for motion swingers  simulates someone really lashing at the ball with everything they have. 

 

With a faster tempo meter available, the player could risk getting extra carry on all their clubs and really go for broke when they needed to.  Their choice of course.  Again, this a realistic part of golf strategy and decision making that comes up when between clubs or considering risky carries as much as hitting a shot softer. 

 

It's not just about hitting longer drives.  This comes up a quite a bit during the course of a round on different shots.

Right now you can't carry the irons or woods (except driver) any farther no matter how much overswing.   



#57 bortimus

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 03:44 PM

Something interesting to add if a fast "MAX" meter were to ever be considered... 

 

Since it's a full out swing on a separate tempo meter, there would be no need to have a varying degrees of distance levels on the meter.  It's all or nothing. 

 

So instead of the "12:00" mark being 100%, make that a fat/thin mark and then the regular "6:00" mark is your clubface angle as it is now.  

 

You'd see people topping shots, popping up drives, and hitting shanks.   That would be fun :lol:






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