56 replies to this topic

[mebby]

Just kidding.  I know what you mean. 

 

So I went to the range with a beginner player (to minimize distance loss from any snap deviation)

 

122% Driver at regular loft gets about 288 carry/303 total on current fairway settings

122% Fully lofted driver gets  291/303

 

100 % Driver goes 271/284

Fully lofted 276/289

 

Then I tested a 5 iron. 

122% only goes 189/194  barely an increase from the default distance

 

303 with the driver isn't shabby by any means, but as we all know the mishits are pretty ugly/unplayable.   

 

To simulate having a real bomber player, you could increase the amount of benefit from the overswing area and let people decide for themselves.  Make it so irons could go a full club further (10-15 yards) and maybe get 300 carry with the driver on a pure strike. 

 

I do like the default distances now though.  The potential to go long would be pretty fun to have in reserve. 

Now THAT'S a good idea!  I like the idea of having the over-swing have more of an impact on the distance.  If you pair that with an attribute system it could be pretty cool.  If your player has a higher distance attribute then his/her over-swing might generate significantly more distance than a normal player but the penalty for mishits would also be greater.  His normal/100% swing would also yield more distance as well.

[remers]

Good stuff guys. I think there needs to be some greater risk reward available with all clubs especially the longer ones so we'll see if any of this gets picked up.

[bortimus]

I think the game could implement distance gains without using an attribute system.

 

The trackman graph posted earlier shows the approximate clubhead speeds that we are hitting at the 100% mark.

 

Right now 100% looks like it represents 113 mph or so with the driver. 

 

Keep the defaults as they are.

 

If the overswing took it all the way up to Bubba Watson territory (123 ish with driver) and used that as the benchmark for the full overswing, then applied the same method with all the clubs in the bag, then there's no need to build points or skills.  It's all there if you want to use it. 

 

Right now it's not going that high. 

 

Some guys are going to bunt it around the course.  Some will get really good at overswinging and overpower courses occasionally.  Some will be really bad at it but have a lot of fun trying.  They will have to become escape artists.  There's the skill. 

[mebby]

I think the game could implement distance gains without using an attribute system.

The trackman graph posted earlier shows the approximate clubhead speeds that we are hitting at the 100% mark.

Right now 100% looks like it represents 113 mph or so with the driver.

Keep the defaults as they are.

If the overswing took it all the way up to Bubba Watson territory (123 ish with driver) and used that as the benchmark for the full overswing, then applied the same method with all the clubs in the bag, then there's no need to build points or skills. It's all there if you want to use it.

Right now it's not going that high.

Some guys are going to bunt it around the course. Some will get really good at overswinging and overpower courses occasionally. Some will be really bad at it but have a lot of fun trying. They will have to become escape artists. There's the skill.

Really, really liking this idea. The penalty for over-swing needs to be increased though if this is implemented. But I love the idea.

[Sinewiz]

The increased distance for over swinging is something I've always pushed for provided it's matched with a near perfect snap.

[tlvx]

I think the distance issue has largely been resolved, when the developers added more distance. It used to be at like 285... so it's much better now, being able to hit a drive over 300 yards.

 

That said, it would be nice to have the option to move just the par 5 tees up... while keeping the rest of the tees at Championship. This way we could play reachable par 5's as intended, on their real life course counterparts.

 

The ability to hit the ball too far would take away the strategy in the game, and the courses wouldn't play as intended.

 

A video golf game will never be able to fairly simulate the increased difficulty - and inherent risk - behind driving the ball 330 yards. At those distances, Tour Pros barely hit the fairway half of the time. There's just no way to force the savvy users in any given video golf game to have a realistic fairway in regulation percentage.

 

It all looks good on paper. But, when you consider all of the unintended consequences of going any further... the current distances are more than fair.

[blueblood1995]

I think the game could implement distance gains without using an attribute system.

The trackman graph posted earlier shows the approximate clubhead speeds that we are hitting at the 100% mark.

Right now 100% looks like it represents 113 mph or so with the driver.

Keep the defaults as they are.

If the overswing took it all the way up to Bubba Watson territory (123 ish with driver) and used that as the benchmark for the full overswing, then applied the same method with all the clubs in the bag, then there's no need to build points or skills. It's all there if you want to use it.

Right now it's not going that high.

Some guys are going to bunt it around the course. Some will get really good at overswinging and overpower courses occasionally. Some will be really bad at it but have a lot of fun trying. They will have to become escape artists. There's the skill.

Best idea I've read in a while. +1
And why does everyone want to reach par 5s in two shots? They are after all par 5s!

[Golden Bear]

Each of the player types hit a driver off the tee the same distance. Now, there's no way a beginner can hit as far as a Tour Pro. Therefore can there be a variation in maximum hit distances for each player type which can then be adjusted from performance. E.G. Beginner can only hit 225 yards to begin with but can increase his distance over time according to performance improvements.

The maximum distance attainable should only marginally exceed the MINIMUM distance attainable by the next player type up. Then it would be in the player's interest to move up the that next level to potentially get greater distance.

 

In my opinion that would be a great way to lose a lot of people playing this game.  The skill should be only in getting the snap and understanding the physics of each shot type, club used, ball lie, wind, and firmness of fairways as well as stimp of greens and pin locations.  

 

I have played max/min assists since Unity 4 and find that it is where I enjoy the game most.  To take away yardage just because of using higher assists seems counter productive to me.

[highfade]

Deja vu,  how long ago was it we had the same discussion?

 

I also like to be able to overswing for extra distance. (Think Tiger with a 4-iron). It brings the aggressive vs careful  aspect to the game. At the moment it's only the wedges and  up the 6 -iron plus the driver the benefit form over-swinging.  I hope the other clubs will also be tweaked in the future.

 

With the 3-wood you are actually worse off by over-swinging?  Going for the green over a water hazard on a par 5 with a 3-wood, thinking, if you really cream it you can get there and the thrill if you do. Well, not at the moment, won't work, better lay up...    chicken

[bortimus]

If the game allowed an increase in the overswing area, I don't think you would have to worry about players hitting it too far and courses becoming pushovers.

All other things being equal, the overswing penalty guarantees that longer hitters will ALWAYS be less accurate than everyone else.

It's essentially like having an EXTREME difficulty setting.


It would open up a lot of strategic possibilities.

Think about how much more fun team based play and matches would be with a larger spread of distance potentials!

[frank70]

Penalty on overswing: I'm playing Tour Pro / mouseswing. If you overswing to the maximum (122%) you get merely 10 yards more ball flight. On the other hand if your timing is only off 1 % (0.24 or 0.26 ratio) you won't hit the fairway. So in my opinion the risk/reward is already in favour of the 100 % swing. If the punishment if even exxagerated there will be no Tour Pro player who is overswinging at all. Risk is way too much.

 

I stand by my point that the standard length has to increase to give us the opportunity to play the courses like the Pros do. Driver with 100 % should fly to around 280 yards (295-300 yards with roll) and the irons need even a bigger boost. Pros play their PW longer than 127 yards.  

[MimicPS]

I stand by my point that the standard length has to increase to give us the opportunity to play the courses like the Pros do. Driver with 100 % should fly to around 280 yards (295-300 yards with roll) and the irons need even a bigger boost. Pros play their PW longer than 127 yards.  

Very much agree with your observations regarding the MotionSwing risk/reward on full swing and above. I already think we give up yardage on other swing types as it is currently set up, possibly due to a greater number of variables in the swing.

 

I think if the plans for ball and club shaft come in and you can exploit equipment to get closer to the Pros lengths then all well and good. As long as you still have the correct number of clubs in the bag then it will be up to you how your strategy plays out with less set gapping between clubs. The downside of this should be, as discussed previously in other threads, a trade-off between length and accuracy. As it is with 'standard' club lengths, I am already seeing some players trying to overpower the course with long drives and coming unstuck, but even more of this, as well as greater penalties in the 'red' zone for mis-timed swings will, in my opinion, meet player expectations and still keep the scoring in some sort of parity.

[frank70]

I don't have a problem with the current amount of penalty in Tour Pro Mode if you are swinging with 122 %.

 

I have a problem that you only gain about 10 yards going absolutely full power (with driver)

 

And i have a problem that you cannot play the courses like the pros without going full power (122%).

 

We should have more rollout in the fairways. And the irons should go longer in the air. (9 iron in real life goes as long as 8 iron in PG)

 

Cameron Percy is ranked 92nd in driving length on the PGA TOUR (from 196 listed players). And he drives the ball 290 yards on average. That would be a good average number for PG if you are hitting driver with 100 %.

 

From this basis out, i would be ok with different shafts, balls, etc. changing the length and the mishit penalty of shots.

[tlvx]

And why does everyone want to reach par 5s in two shots? They are after all par 5s!

 

There are 3-shot par 5's, and there are reachable par 5's. When playing a course that is based on a real life course, we should be playing the reachable par 5's in two, same as the Tour Players do.

 

So, without having to add more distance to the clubs, this can be resolved by simply allowing a manual tee adjustment to just those par 5 holes that are playing longer than they have been playing on Tour. This is akin to how the tees are adjusted at the Majors, to account for the wind direction.

 

There are other solutions, such as making the course conditions harder and faster, particularly in the fairways... but, making the distances go up to, "Bubba Watson territory," as another poster suggested, would have considerable unintended consequences, and dwarf the lion's share of the playable holes.

 

First of all, there is no way to fairly enforce a realistic miss of the fairway... certainly not as often as Bubba Watson misses the fairway. So, the risk/reward scenario will largely only apply to the duffers.

 

Also, many of us already layup on a good portion of the short par 4's, that aren't quite in driving range, for strategic purposes. Being able to drive the ball further would remove a lot of the intended strategy from the game.

 

So, this issue is really only affecting the otherwise reachable par 5's, which only amount to 4 out of 18 holes in a given round... and usually there are only 1 or 2 of the par 5's that are not reachable in this game, that may be reachable to the Tour players on their real life course counterparts.

 

That's why my solution is to simply allow the ability to move up just the par 5 tees, without affecting the playing yardages of the rest of the holes, that may play at Championship length. This keeps the integrity of the courses, and allows them to be played as intended; without having to add any more distance to the clubs... which can already be hit over 300 yards in the game.

 

Basically, we shouldn't be making any further distance advancements, that could potentially improve the realism of 5 to 10 percent of the holes in the game... but, would simultaneously dwarf the intended playing yardages of the other 90 to 95 percent of the holes in the game. When all variables are considered, that's just nowhere near a good trade-off.

[bortimus]

I think it's easy to dismiss the idea of "Bubba Watson" distances by misunderstanding how hard it would be to actually pull it off with any degree of accuracy. 

 

 

Suppose the game was released and no club distances were given, and the swing meter represented "reasonable humanly attainable" clubhead speeds" (Sadlowski notwithstanding.  Not going there)

 

The meter is the same shape, but again, nothing is marked on the meter.  The area past "12:00" is not colored red/orange.  It's there, but looks the same as everything else.   

 

So we all fill our bags with clubs and hit the range and figure out what we are comfortable hitting.  We take notes or remember our click tendencies and snap points and so on... 

 

Let's say the top of the driver meter maxed out at 120 ish clubhead speed. 

 

If the ball physics replicated what actually happens at 120 mph clubhead speed instead of using an additional penalty for "overswinging", players would still cringe at the offline shots a full driver would produce if the snap was missed.  They would back down a bit and find their sweet spot.  There you go, there's THEIR driver distance.

 

Repeat this concept throughout the bag and now you have a truly individualized game.  

 

Some players will love that they can hit the ball far and will accept the wildness and penalty strokes that come along with it.  This is a perfectly legitimate way to play golf.  It's not for everyone, but I bet you would see the temptation hard to resist.   It would be very difficult to consistently score well with this approach. 

 

Anyway, my point being...

It really depends on what the developers are comfortable simulating.  Right now, we can simulate all kinds of players EXCEPT people who produce really fast clubhead speeds.  

 

If you want to Fred Funk it all day, you hit clubs at 80 % (or whatever)

 

What we can't simulate is the aggressive player who can generate very high clubhead speeds but is often on the brink of disaster throughout the round. 

 

You see this kind of player at all levels of golf, not just on the PGA tour.

[Ansley]

Not sure the best method, but whatever is done, I agree that more distance is needed. 

[Dazmaniac]

I just feel that for the added 22% hit that you can give it on the meter, the additional ball carry gained just doesn't quite seem enough.

 

Driver 271 carry at 100%, but only a handful of extra yards with an additional 20% applied. Small tweaks.

[mebby]

I just feel that for the added 22% hit that you can give it on the meter, the additional ball carry gained just doesn't quite seem enough.

 

Driver 271 carry at 100%, but only a handful of extra yards with an additional 20% applied. Small tweaks.

I agree with this.  I think if this were changed it would go a long way.

[bortimus]

A lot of good discussion here. 

 

Again, I like the default distances.  I'd be happy if the 100% mark represented the same distances for the clubs as it does now. 

 

I think it would be great if the overswing penalty was done away with altogether.  Simply let the last part of the meter represent more clubhead speed and have the ball physics remain true as speed increases. 

 

Artificially magnifying snap errors over a certain clubhead speed (the number that is set at 100% for each club) is arbitrary and breaks the logic of having actual data as the basis for the ball flight.

 

Unfortunately, as computer golfers we have been conditioned to the notion of excessively over-penalizing very high but realistic swing speeds which is really unnecessary. 

The result of this defies the laws of ball flight physics rather than obeying them. 

 

In this regard, PG would take a much appreciated departure from other computer golf games. 

Basically, however you hit it, no matter how hard you hit it, everything happens based on that. No multiplier/formula making your ball curve MORE than it would otherwise 

 

If the total attainable clubhead speed range is extended, the loss of accuracy will take care of itself. 

[Mike Jones]

 

Basically, however you hit it, no matter how hard you hit it, everything happens based on that. No multiplier/formula making your ball curve MORE than it would otherwise 

 

If the total attainable clubhead speed range is extended, the loss of accuracy will take care of itself. 

 

I'm not sure I agree one that one, when CH is maxed out IRL the player is carrying more risk not just because of fact that 1 degree offline goes further offline at 300 as opposed to 270 but by the fact that it's harder to time everything when body parts and clubhead are moving more rapidly. 

 

If we did what you propose there would be no 'risk reward' only 'reward' because it isnt any more difficult to hit the snap point when you overswing. We could always speed up the downswing meter speed but then we couldn't do the same with the motion swing so having a decreased margin for error like we do now would seem like the way to go.

 

There is approx 20 yards more available on overswing with the driver but on the irons most of the extra speed converts to spin which is great for stopping the ball quicker on landing on the mid to long irons. In the pro shop there will be equipment available which will act just like they do IRL so you can take some spin off the shots with a different head design or shaft flexpoint. They won't give an advantage per se but you will be able to customise your game the way you prefer to play.